Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:56:10 GMT
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Viewed:
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3804 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Joseph Williams writes:
>
> > I'm in full agreement with taking into consideration previous civilizations
> > as greater in influence than what is currently the USA of today.
>
> Well, let's compare apples to apples here. I said greatest *nation*-- you can
> hardly compare a nation to a civilization.
>
> Take either
> > China or Egypt,
>
> ...please. (apologizes to Henny;-)
>
> which are still very vital world communities today.
>
> That's putting it kindly. China is one of the most repressive countries on
> earth. Just wait until the 1,000,000+ Chinese young men with no chance of
> marriage start getting restless...
Where I was coming from wasn't giving anyone a moral scorecard. Just how
they had impacted nations that followed. By noting that they were still
vital wasn't trying to give any credence to whatever political atmosphere is
currently going on, but that they have still endured to this day in whatever
form.
>
> > I think your attitude would slam more doors than anything.
>
> My attitude is that we are great because we love liberty and freedom-- what is
> so wrong with that?
I guess thinking some bumper sticker over another on your bag is going to
change your fortunes at the market made patriosm out to be a soccer match
the way I read it.
> But for what it's
> > worth the USA flag isn't looked terribly favourably in a lot of countries.
>
> It's worth nothing. List any country, and I'll bet that we have either given
> millions of $$$ to them in aide, sent our men to die for *their* freedom, or
> assisted them in some profound fashion.
>
> > Not that any *western* country is but the US's overseas policies and refusal
> > to commit to various treaties makes it more of a target in some places.
>
> Ha, US-bashing is all the rage in European countries such as France--
> intellectually bankrupt socialists bore me.
> > The US's success is based on immigrants. It is not so much a nation as the
> > metaphor for the global village.
>
> Absolutely, undeniably, incontrovertibly NO, NO, NO! And NO! Again, I say NO!
>
> First, the immigrants wouldn't have come here if there wasn't *opportunity*.
> But even if they came anyway, if we had set up a dictatorship, we could have
> used those immigrants as slaves or something.
>
> We are not the first nation to be flooded with immigrants. We are the first to
> allow immigrants to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
> *freely*. *THAT* is what our success is based on.
>
>
Again what I meant was your country is built on the work of immigrants. The
only indiginous people to America are the Aboriginals, a subject already
touched upon. Ethnic groups from all over the world built up the various
industries and made it what a great country it is today. I'm not sure as to
why your so opposed to that notion.
> More enlightened citizens of your country
> > realize their stewardship role. What have you done to contribute to your
> > country's greatness besides being born in it?
>
> Me, personally? I am an honest, upstanding citizen, I work hard to make a good
> life for me and my family, I pay taxes, and I am willing and able to defend her
> if and when I'm called to do so. What *more* would you expect or want from a
> citizen?
>
> Measuring your flag pole is
> > what seperates you from the rest of the world and dosn't help anyone.
>
> My point wasn't to toot our collective horn-- is was to point out that we are
> great *because* of our Constitution.
sorry, shot from the hip shouldn't have put you on the defensive. with most
laws of physics a bravado display creates a shotgun reaction.
> The US
> > has contributed to every major disaster and 3rd world country because they
> > have inherited the responsibility of stewardship.
>
> From whom?
Just like humankind has inherited responsibility of the entire Earth due to
the sheer size and influence, so has America of all of humanity. From whom?
Who's to say. It's the way things unfolded. From the unpaid labour of
African slaves or menial wages of Oriental railway workers perhaps. Or the
freely given land of the Aboriginals. But also the misfortunes of those not
even affected by the US. The United Nations is in NewYork because it's the
(unoffical) capital of the world. If any other country with as much wealth
and influence were to be instead of the US it's no stretch to imagine the UN
there. Do we expect the most powerful to be benevolent or despotic. I think
the US is trying to live up to the highest of ideals. They dropped food
rations and medical supplies for the Afghan locals, totally unheard of in
wartimes previous.
>
> And it's a bit of blind
> > luck that WWII went the allies way and were it not for the UK the Natzi's
> > would have put a different spin on things.
>
> What in the world are you talking about here? Luck had nothing to do with it--
> sacrifice in the name of feedom won WWII. To imply otherwise is frankly
> insulting to the thousands who died to preserve yours and my freedom.
I would never insult or ignore any soldier's efforts, however Hollywood has
done more to recognize the US's efforts more than anyone. Is there a
monument built yet in Washington in memorial?
> I think that adds to Pedro's
> > arguement the unrelenting effort with manpower and funds that the UK
> > commited to preserving the 'american way of life' and all of democracy. If
> > America had devoted as much energy and suffered as many losses as the UK did
> > then it would be a different discussion we would be having. And like Pedro,
> > sorry for jumping in on this in the middle ;-)
>
> Did you read your history book upside-down? Europe owes a debt of gratitude to
> the US! We *liberated* France from German occupation, for crying out loud--
> and for that we get disdain in return.
I should find some angle here too but all I can think of is the seperation
of collective and individual. Do you personally feel the disdain from the
French citizens for the unappreciated effort of individuals you've never
met? Or is this some global oppression from all corners. hehe, no you don't
get disdain.. you get canuk's mocking you ;-)
cheers, Joseph
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