Subject:
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Re: Libertarian Propaganda
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:55:21 GMT
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Viewed:
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443 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> There isn't enough to debate around here these days ( grin) so here's some
> fodder. Rather than excerpting, here it is in its entireity. Note in
> particular point #3, which I think may be the most significant of the 5,
> although I'm rather fond of #1 as well
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> (1) Prosecute government officials who commit crimes.
>
> "McVeigh said he blew up the building in Oklahoma City to protest the
> federal government's actions in Waco -- and he was quickly apprehended,
> tried, and punished for his crime," noted Dasbach. "That was proper,
> even if you might disagree with the morality of the death sentence.
>
> "However, not a single FBI or BATF agent was arrested for their role
> in the fiery deaths of 86 people at the Branch Davidian compound in
> Waco, Texas. There should not be one standard of justice for ordinary
> Americans, and another for government officials. Until that injustice
> is eliminated, many Americans will continue to view their government
> with suspicion, fear, and bitterness."
A good point with a debatable example.
>
> (2) Embrace an open, vibrant political system.
>
> "People tend to turn to violence only when they feel they have no
> other way to be heard," said Dasbach. "It is the government's
> responsibility, then, to make sure that political discussion is not
> restricted, regulated, or suppressed.
>
> "When Americans feel they have a role in the political system, they
> will work through the political system to make productive changes. When
> that avenue is blocked -- either by restrictive ballot access laws,
> legal curbs on political speech, exclusion from debates, or by
> attempting to discredit unpopular political speech -- the Timothy
> McVeighs of the world turn to violence.
>
> "That's why robust political debate -- especially about the abuse of
> government power -- is a healthy way to change the system. And that's
> why stifling such debate is downright dangerous."
Another good point, but it misses to a degree. People turn to violence when
they feel disenfranchised for whatever reason - the Latasha Harlin/Rodney
King one-two punch resulted in riots in Los Angeles, and that was the court
system. Institutional racism.
Let me note Libertarians' laissez-faire policies towards business and their
own overwhelmingly white male make-up.
>
> (3) Reject violence on principle.
>
> "Over the past 20 years, the United States government has intervened
> militarily in Iraq, Yugoslavia, Haiti, Panama, Afghanistan, Bosnia,
> Kosovo, and other nations," said Dasbach. "In each case, these
> military actions resulted in innocent civilians being killed, and were
> done without the benefit of a formal declaration of war.
War sucks. Innocent people get killed. But you can't be paralyzed into
non-action because of it. Further, the consequences of non-action may be worse.
But then again, we don't have to be the world's policemen.
>
> "The message of these actions is simple: It's proper to use violence
> to achieve political goals. That's a message the government should not
> send. Instead, a commitment to nonviolence should start at the top.
Actually, it needs to start at the bottom - everyone across the world needs
to tell their government that they have no right to expend the lives of the
governered.
>
> "Unless the security of the United States is directly threatened, the
> U.S. government should not bomb, invade, or drop missiles on people in
> other nations. Violence breeds violence, and it's time for our
> government to lead by example and stop the bloodshed."
Ahhhh, it must be nice to never have to work within an alliance like NATO...
>
> (4) Repeal the Omnibus Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996.
>
> "This legislation, rushed through Congress after the Oklahoma City
> bombing, grants the president arbitrary power to declare individuals
> 'terrorists,' authorizes the use of secret evidence, and reverses the
> presumption of innocence for suspects," said Dasbach. "Repealing this
> law would expand freedom without hindering the ability to catch real
> criminals.
Big Brother is watching you!
>
> "The freedoms recognized under the Bill of Rights are our strongest
> bulwark against terrorism. Security measures that infringe on those
> freedoms will inevitably lead to abuse, ultimately making us less
> secure in our lives and property."
>
> (5) Reduce the size and power of the federal government.
>
> "No, we're not saying that the growing power of the federal government
> justifies what Timothy McVeigh did," said Dasbach. "But the fact is,
> millions of Americans view their own government with suspicion and
> distrust.
The fans of Paranoia are being whipped by the right-wing now rather than the
left-wing. Wackos are wackos. Weatherman, Branch Davidians: wackos.
>
> "Americans see a government that can recklessly seize our property
> under asset forfeiture, eminent domain, or environmental laws; that can
> detain us at roadblocks for not wearing a seatbelt; that forces banks
> to spy on their own customers; that shoots innocent people dead in the
> name of the War on Drugs; that can secretly read our e-mail; that
> allows the IRS to seize our bank accounts; and that can violate our
> civil liberties in a thousand different ways.
>
> "A government that was limited to its Constitutionally defined role
> would be smaller, less intrusive, and less threatening. It would be a
> government that honors fundamental American liberties, instead of
> undermining them. And it would be a government that gives Americans
> little reason to view it with apprehension."
Power corrupts. Gotta put a watchdog on it (and put a watchdog on the
watchdog). Placing the power into the hands of businesses that have no
watchdogs does not fill me with confidence.
>
> Those five suggestions have something in common, said Dasbach: They
> would all change the political climate in a positive way -- and make
> future Timothy McVeighs less likely.
Ha! Watch the Weathermen return.
>
> "We can never bring back the men, women, and children who were killed
> in Oklahoma City," he said. "But by using this tragedy to honor and
> reaffirm our nation's fundamental liberties, we can help make sure that
> the 168 people who died in Oklahoma City did not die in vain. It would
> be America's way of standing up and saying: 'Never again.' "
Grandstanding on peoples' deaths. Just another political party.
Bruce
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Libertarian Propaganda
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| There isn't enough to debate around here these days ( grin) so here's some fodder. Rather than excerpting, here it is in its entireity. Note in particular point #3, which I think may be the most significant of the 5, although I'm rather fond of #1 (...) (23 years ago, 13-Jun-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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