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Todd Lehman wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > [...] I my opintion, Todd's position on clones is wrong. However, I respect
> > his opinion, and I grant him the authority to limit how clones are discussed
> > on Lugnet. I have consistently found that Todd's ideas on how to manage
> > the site (as separate from determining it's content) have been the same.
> > Again, this commands my respect. [...]
>
> Thanks for the vote of confidence. But it's not my intention to "limit how
> clones are discussed" here, inasmuch as no one is complaining about clones
> so far. Rather, sensing (from private and publics discussions over many
> years, plus a survey of almost 2000 respondents) that 90% or more of LEGO
> fans detest clones, I thought it made sense to create a special group just
> for clones (i.e., lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands) so that people who *did*
> enjoy clones could go talk up a storm there without fear or worry of
> constantly being degraded or flamed for being off-topic or heathens. When
> we talked about creating the group about a year ago, the idea was well-
> received, IIRC, both before and after the group's creation.
>
> Now, given that there is a group dedicated to clone brands, then obviously
> that's the "most appropriate" place to have the truly in-depth discussions
> about clones. But that doesn't mean that they can't be discussed in other
> groups -- it's just the "most appropriate" place -- the place to direct
> followups to, etc., when things get nitty gritty, etc.
>
> Personally (just me now as a person, not as a sysadmin) I think clones are
> both a good thing and a bad thing to have in the marketplace because they
> (presumably) bring prices down due to competitive pressures. That's good in
> the short term for consumers, I think, but not good for TLC in the long-term,
> and therefore bad for consumers in the long-term. (I am not an economist :)
> But regardless off whether they're "good" or "bad" for LEGO, I'd be perfectly
> happy never ever having to hear about them. But that's just me personally,
> and should not be misconstrued as an official LUGNET position on the issue.
>
> With regard to raw *data* about clones, on the other hand -- such as reviews
> or parts, etc., that's something I have a hard time accepting as "mixable"
> with the current groups -- especially for brands that have four-digit product
> numbers as LEGO does (because of the potential for confusion), or similar
> part numbers. If we truly need a group for non-LEGO DAT files, then that's
> a far better thing to have IMHO than posting non-LEGO parts to LEGO®-intended
> (note the ®) DAT groups.
>
> As far as reviews go, I'd almost be surprised if fans of clone brands
> wouldn't rather see the reviews in the .clone-brands group than in the
> .reviews group, given the nature of the two groups. Then again, maybe not --
> and maybe even though 90% of everyone hates clones, only 1% of people would
> hate to see reviews of clones in the .reviews group. If so, then it's better
> IMHO to talk about how we can "fix" the charter of a group and let me be
> bummed out about it personally than for everyone to quiety but respectfully
> disagree.
My tendency to compress my discussion bites me again somewhat. What I
was saying is that in my personal opinion, I think Todd's personal
opionion of the effect of clones on our hobby is wrong. I even think
that it would be better to have a more comprehensive site where clones
are more welcomed (however I recognize that this flies in the face of
the vast majority of LEGO fans). Given the realities, I accept and
respect Todd's decision to limit discussion of clone which doesn't
closely relate to LEGO specifically to lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands. I
would like to see a lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands.market where people
could trade in clones. I would be inclined to ask that clone discussion
on Lugnet still limit itself to clones which are essentially fully
compatible with LEGO (or DUPLO) bricks, or to comparing and contrasting
clones to LEGO bricks. Given the charter of Lugnet, I don't want to see
extensive discussion of how to build things with KNex for example. Now
if you want to discuss how you incorportated Tyco or Megabloks into your
LEGOverse that's cool. If you want to discuss how you built something
with KNex, and why you chose KNex instead of LEGO bricks that's cool
also.
I'm cool with Lugnet not hosting clone data bases, though it would be
nice to eventually see a combined data base, but which would allow you
to select which clone brands would show up when you made queries. Lugnet
may not be the place for such a database, but I would hope that if
someone decided to do that, Todd would find some way to support such an
effort such that any updates to the Pause data base are automatically
reflected in the other data base without any human intervention
(ultimately, I would like to see Pause provide some form of direct data
base interaction, perhaps with SQL or something, so that people could
essentially provide their own front ends, though there might be some
reason to limit how that was done).
As for my own feeling on clones, I have to say that I wish Tyco still
made LEGO compatible bricks. I wish Megabloks quality would improve. I
am slowly collecting Tyco bricks, but I won't do much with them because
the quantities are so limited. I have bought some of the Megabloks
Legends series for the neat parts. I bought some small Megabloks truck
sets to make a specific humor piece based on something I saw in real
life (I'm not affraid to make fun of Megabloks - if they're concerned
about their image, then they need to work on their quality). I donated
the bucket of Megabloks that I bought because I decided the quality was
so horrible, and didn't even keep the hordes of blue and yellow 2x2
tiles which I certainly could have found a use for (if only TLC would
learn something from Megabloks).
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
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