 | | Dear NNTP users,
|
| For those of you using newsreaders, I have a few questions. I'm curious: what other sorts of stuff do you follow via newsreader? Anything cool? Are there many things you've been forced to switch to viewing other ways? How do you follow rss feeds? Is (...) (19 years ago, 19-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I've been following several dutch newsgroups, mostly Linux/hardware related for years. Used to subscribe to other groups too but those died out when webboards came or were ruined by one or two loudmouths. (...) I've been using KDE's akregator (...) (19 years ago, 19-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) usenet groups (among them rec.toys.lego :-) other, non-usenet servers, for example borland.public.delphi.* (...) Not switch. I do read a couple of web forums, but I really don't like the format (the content is my reason for reading). (...) (...) (19 years ago, 19-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| I only use NNTP for Lugnet. As other hobbies I have had have moved to BBs, I have trailed off of them. I *highly* prefer NNTP and email to anything else, as I can download when I want and read offline (not that I'm ever really offline). I just won't (...) (19 years ago, 19-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I'm not sure I follow you. LUGNET newsgroups are either on or off and Jake's personal project is not equipped. (?) -Suz (19 years ago, 19-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| Mainly, if you kill off Lugnet, try to find someone willing to support/host the NNTP side in some way, so us dinosaurs can continue with our non-web reading, and the webbies can have the interface they seem to rave about. (...) -- Tom Stangl *(URL) (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Um, well, since my newsreader is Pine, I suppose I could say that I follow all my e-mail through my newsreader. . .but I don't use NNTP for anything but LUGNET newsgroups (and never really read any non-LUGNET newsgroups but rtl and some (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Suz" <suz@baseplate.com> wrote in message news:IJw76p.246I@lugnet.com... (...) I subscribe to about 40 Lugnet groups on 3 different computers via NNTP. That's my idea of cool! ;) I've never figured out how to subscribe to rtl or I would (paid (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general, lugnet.admin.nntp)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| It seems that I'm no only one here who doesn't like NNTP. I'll try to explain. NNTP is, to me, an outdated technology that should simply be allowed to die out. It is cumbersome (especially with the extra checks that Lugnet demand before allowing (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Allan Johansen" <f2k@chaotica.dk> wrote in message news:IJxH0E.110r@lugnet.com... (...) die (...) I disagree. I think NNTP is a underappreciated technology by most people. Reading content via a News Reader is as simple as reading e-mail. I really (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) You're forgetting some BIG advantages of NNTP... NNTP doesn't require huge bloated software (be it IE or Firefox or whatever...), since it's text-based there's little overhead (just look at all the HTML code when looking at the source of ANY (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I've never used NNTP (hate Outlook Express and never bothered to explore other readers (plus its blocked by the firewall at work)). However only this evening on the train home from work I was think I should see what the fuss was, before I read (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) If you're running Windows, you can try Forte's Free Agent. That's what I used for years. Steve (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) These days, I use almost only the discussion groups of LUGNET, which I still access using NNTP, so to me it's pretty much text only. I don't see any images no, but I don't mind. If it's described well and sounds cool, I'll cut'n'paste the URL (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Strangely, thats what I just downloaded! I've come back here for some advice The setup requires the Mail: (SMTP) Server. Is this for my mail account? if so I'm assuming a Hotmail account won't work? I checked on the Outlook Newreader, It (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I played around with NNTP on LUGNET a year or so ago, got it working, almost never used it. It didn't fit into my own personal workflow. Going beyond the immediate questions you pose, it sounds like you're interested in determining the (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) If I remember correct you can leave the SMTP empty, it's only used if you reply to a message by email instead of to the newsgroup. Reply address should always be your regular email address, so people can email you if they want to reply in (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Yes. Free Agent allows you to reply via email to messages. So it needs to know where to send email. (...) It won't if Hotmail doesn't allow you to send email via SMTP. (...) That should be whatever address you want people to send private (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I used to use the NNTP service but I must say I much prefer the web based service. I find NNTP to be that little bit too primitive, sort of like email software which can't deal with HTML mime type. (...) I think using RSS is a great idea. It (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Thanks to both you and steve for your help Still doesn't work mind you! I'm wondering XP firewall issues but as the missus is using the computer I'll have to test some other time. FreeAgent gives a windsock error Connection refused by server (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Yes the latest Windows firewall does have issues - I have stopped using it as my ADSL modem has a firewall. But before that I used Sygate firewall (URL) with no problems. Also, make sure you're using the correct port 1119, not the default 119. (...) (19 years ago, 20-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) As no email software SHOULD, but let's discuss THAT topic somewhere else ;) (email which is purely HTML goes to my /dev/null , makes for a saner day) (...) RSS is nice, but how would you replace the offline behaviour of NNTP and how would you (...) (19 years ago, 21-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) XanaNews is a good one too, and it's completely free (Although Outlook Express is good enough for me, keeping mail and news in the same client): (URL) Anders Isaksson, Sweden BlockCAD: (2 URLs) (19 years ago, 21-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Thank you, thank you! I am so happy with the responses and discussion in this thread. It's great for me to hear all your views and to learn so much in a hurry. Some of it's over my head. ..I'll still need to read the posts carefully, and take (...) (19 years ago, 21-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I see there are lots of replies that I haven't read yet, but I'll just answer Suz's question directly for myself. I read a few standard newsgroups from my ISP's server via NNTP. E.g. comp.arch (computer architecture), rec.humour.funny, etc. I (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Exactly. My computer is online 100% (Linux), so offline doesn't matter to me. I sit here typing into Gnu emacs (so editing is comfortable), with a browser window half-hidden, open to the "Lugnet Classic" logo from a post I read a few minutes (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| Suz, I use NNTP almost exclusively. As others have pointed out, the new web forums (such as that used on legofan.org) are somewhat spiffy, but I find them slow and cumbersome. With NNTP I can quickly scan what is new across a relatively flat list of (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Well, there is an RSS feed of all LUGNET posts on Peeron: (URL) it is for all the newsgroups, and not one per each step in the hierarchy. (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Well, didn't we decide that we all love it? :) (...) I think it's a really nice feature to have (and a great differential between LUGNET and other boards), but for me, SMTP support is more important than NNTP. Not just because that's what I (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Dan Boger" <dan@peeron.com> wrote in message news:20050722133952....ron.com... (...) FeedReader doesn't like that address. Any idea why? Mike (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| Message sent via NNTP Thanks all of you that helped Tim Now all I have to do is work out how to subscribe to multiple groups without having to do them individually "Ross Crawford" <ross.{mylastname}@gmail.com> wrote in message (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| Hello! (...) That's exactly what I never understood about the NNTP fans' fondness of NNTP. I *can* understand why software engineers, coders and other geeky NNTP users (sorry :-) ) use NNTP and actually prefer it over every other form of forum. But (...) (19 years ago, 22-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Because most of the discussions I follow on LUGNET don't involve many pictures, and I can always look at those later? Besides, one CAN tie in NNTP with other stuff, if I use my fancy newsreader I can click on any link and the pic is opened, (...) (19 years ago, 23-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Jan-Albert van Ree" <javanree@vanree.net> wrote in message news:IJxyIx.3EM@lugnet.com... (...) True, but the web based interface is so much nicer. Also see my response to your next point. (...) Because a GUI makes it much easier to communicate (...) (19 years ago, 23-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Mike Walsh" <mike_walsh@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:IJxLJF.1xwq@lugnet.com... (...) Why is browsing offline important? My computer is on-line at all times (expect when I'm sleeping, of course.). You can read an on-line forum at your (...) (19 years ago, 23-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Organizing volunteer coders [was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Yes, difficult to find a full-time individual who would be available for the duration of any significant (re)development. Also probably hard to find a part-time manager dedicated enough to oversee work done by many. I have received some offers (...) (19 years ago, 23-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Nice != Useful (...) I don't WANT pictures, unless I explicitly click on them to be opened. And with me probably a lot of others. Some of us are sometimes still on dial-up you know.... (in the field, on holiday, or just no affordable broadband (...) (19 years ago, 24-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Organizing volunteer coders [was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) From what I understand, OS projects don't always look for a single person to organize everyone for the whole time - as people lose interest, others step in. While the larger projects often have a "visionary" leader (Larry Wall, Linus (...) (19 years ago, 24-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Ummmmmm well that's not really fair - phpBB has had 6 updates over the 6 months I've been running it, and only 2 were for major security issues. And most of the exploits are because the site didn't keep up-to-date with the latest updates, or (...) (19 years ago, 25-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Nicer in what way? The web interface has to work hard to provide the same information-at-a-glance that Free Agent does. (...) Who ever said that an NNTP client has to be text-only? (hey, anyone know of one that isn't?) It'd be really cool to (...) (19 years ago, 25-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| I do generally prefer NNTP, but web based does have a few advantages. Here are my pros and cons for each (not specific to LUGNET unless specified): NNTP Pro: User selectable client software allows greater tuning of the interface. My software is in (...) (19 years ago, 25-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Organizing volunteer coders
|
| (...) It seems strange to me, to put RSS in the same group as SMTP and NNTP. To me SMTP and NNTP, like HTTP, are data transfer protocols. RSS is on the other hand a data (annotation) format which - at least in principle - can be transferred with any (...) (19 years ago, 28-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) The web interface is bandwidth-heavy and it hasn't much memory of _my_ actions. (...) Gnus isn't strictly text-only. Neither is Mozilla. Pine is text-only. (...) Are you in the mood to study how to add new modes to Emacs? Or do you think it is (...) (19 years ago, 28-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I haven't looked at XUL writing, but I think it shouldn't be too hard for the java gurus. If I was going to write it, I'd probably try the Emacs way, with some lisp hackery. Or, better yet, write an NNTP proxy that will do the translation on (...) (19 years ago, 28-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I disagree strongly! What protocol exists, which can replace NNTP and which has all the same benefits as NNTP. (...) NNTP is _not_ cumbersome. (but the Lugnet NNTP server is practically unusable to me) I agree that Lugnet doesn't use NNTP very (...) (19 years ago, 28-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) But which format would you translate it to? Wouldn't you have to translate the FTX articles to HTML to get the inlined images? And wouldn't that limit the practical number of NNTP clients slightly? - But of course not as much as implementing (...) (19 years ago, 29-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I don't follow Lugnet through a newsreader (not since the port change). The combination of the annoying e-mail-based authentication, figuring out how to reconfigure my newsreader for the non-standard port, and my general annoyance with having (...) (19 years ago, 29-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) The term "RSS-to-NNTP" does not really make sense. RSS is a data format, whereas NNTP is a protocol. You can convert RSS-feeds (independently of their transport protocols) to plain text and post them to an appropriate newsgroup. But you can't (...) (19 years ago, 29-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I think if we have a proxy that understands FTX and can translate it, the output format shouldn't be set - have that part be pluggable, so you could have it output html, or plain text, or anything else we can think of. Just have the proxy (...) (19 years ago, 29-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) This is great feedback, Jacob. Your responses make excellent points. I agree that RSS is better for seeding discussion. -Suz (19 years ago, 29-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Sensible. (...) Why not associate the format with the user account? NNTP actually has authentication built in. It's just not very common to use it. With some accounts named "<format>reader", we can let people select the format they get the FTX (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| --SNIP-- (...) --SNIP-- I think you could run a threaded discussion running RSS. If you look at the RSS 2.0 specifications there is a tag <category> which could be used to categorise each post as a subcategory of its parent. It's not as elegant as a (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Yes. But why would anybody do that? NNTP is (IMO) the most logical transport protocol for RSS data anyway. That hack would only be needed if you transported RSS data over a non-threaded protocol like HTTP (which unfortunately often is the (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Why? For futureproofing. I suspect that NNTP will decrease its 'marketshare' as time goes on whilst RSS will increase. I could be wrong about that but from reading this tree, it seems I am not the only person who has dumped NNTP for reading (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) You seem to make the same mistakes as many other people: a) RSS and NNTP are two completely different things. RSS is a data format. NNTP is a data transport protocol. b) Things aren't bad, just because they're old. (...) NNTP will not become (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I am not making a mistake. I am referring to use rather than the precise definition. I am well aware that a protocol and a data format are different, does a typical user care, however, that (s)he just downloaded a file via FTP or HTTP? (...) (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) If I want to see the pictures I just kick their URL's off to my image viewer. If I don't, I don't have to wait for them to arrive. (...) So do I. But not af all the MOCs. (...) That requires a rather fat pipe-line. With a 56 kbit/s modem line (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Actually, people were having online discussions about LEGO for a long time, before digital images were so prevalent. But I think it's a matter of preference -- I don't spend nearly as much of my 'LEGO' time looking at MOCs as other people do. (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) I've got the fat pipe. So I'd like to be able to tell this NNTP client to go ahead and grab images (maybe I'd set it to pre-fetch all images, maybe only for certain groups). That way I don't have to wait for slow websites or bad URLs. (...) (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) Looking at the phpBB website all 6 had security fixes, although not all "critical" (...) If nothing happens within those 6 months... phpBB just has a very bad track record with regard to their code quality, compared to infoPoP, vBulletin and (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) A quick scan through the vbulletin boards reveals 5 releases in the same time frame, all of which had security issues, one marked critical. I think that's comparable to phpBB's record, don't you? But we should not be discussing the relative (...) (19 years ago, 30-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Okay, this looks like a good spot for me to ask: "Would you guys like a newsgroup for discussion of LUGNET's development?" I've gotten a few offers now for coding help. Yeaaa!! I'll be honest: From behind the scenes, it's looking more and more (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| I'm content with news being at LUGNET's core. So, assuming all goes well, it'll stay the same for a while. When folks want to subscribe via RSS feeds, or whatever else, I think that'll be pretty simple to do with what's already here. My original (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) It might make sense, but it seems to work fine to keep the discussion here. I suppose it depends a bit on how formal/practical you want us to be. Since I haven't got much time for helping with the coding, I would feel (a little bit) bad about (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| --SNIP-- (...) --SNIP-- I can't remember if I already volunteered to help but if not, I do now. Tim (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| One thing I don't understand, having now used NNTP (and saved an offline cache of .trains 'just in case'!) is how you know about things in groups you don't subscribe to? One of the things I like doing is seeing what is going on in other groups every (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| (...) a) You don't "subscribe" to a newsgroup, you follow it. b) You don't. That's the idea with not following a group. (...) Then you have to follow - or at least sporadically read - those groups. If we imagine the - still fictive - FTX aware (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Suz, Advice is as good as you pay for. Since my pearls of wisdom are super cheap, take it with a grain of salt. :) Re: And we don't have project leadership or any other team structure my advice/comments are thus: do you !!~REALLY~!! need such (...) (19 years ago, 31-Jul-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Mr. Magno, Don't even think about leading my perfectly optimistic conversation off-track! :-) -Suz (19 years ago, 1-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) I agree! But I would also add, I think this project needs at least some kind of coherent plan as to what exactly is needed before it can make any useful headway. Coders are fine for trying out stuff, and coding the final requirements, but (...) (19 years ago, 1-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| --SNIP-- (...) IMHO the best option would be to have the team led (in the very loosest of terms) by someone with a user design background (or failing that level of expertise, and sort of design). The number of technically savvy but ugly and (...) (19 years ago, 1-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Oooo! Me! Me! [shouting and waving] ;-) -Suz (19 years ago, 1-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) Anyone.... Anyone... (else) Bueller??? Bueller??? (smile) (19 years ago, 2-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev? [Was: Dear NNTP users]
|
| (...) lol. yeah, well, I -do- miss that job, ya know? I haven't gotten to see any real improvements since years ago. back when LUGNET was fun. Hmm ..trying to remember what the last thing was. I guess it was the adding of the 'active threads in..' (...) (19 years ago, 2-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev?
|
| (...) I will not claim that what you write is not true (because it probably is), but if we're talking voluntary work, you shouldn't expect coders to code things they can't see the point with. It is fine with somebody trying to give orders, but don't (...) (19 years ago, 2-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: admin.dev?
|
| (...) yeah. To be honest, this sort of stuff should be left to think about after the change in ownership. I mean, it's great to think and talk anytime - I just mean that, because there's no urgency, we needen't stress about it right now. -Suz (19 years ago, 3-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| | | | | Re: Dear NNTP users,
|
| "Jacob Sparre Andersen" <sparre@nbi.dk> wrote in message news:IKILK5.22FD@lugnet.com... (...) Actually, in Outlook Express, you *do* subscribe. It's there in a tab at the top: 'Subscribed' (...) Thank goodness for 'Mark all as read' :-) Tony (19 years ago, 3-Aug-05, to lugnet.admin.general)
| |
